PODCAST EPISODE

								 [00:00:00] Judy Warner: 

Hi everyone, it's Judy Warner. Welcome back to this Week's Ecosystem podcast. Today we're talking about signal integrity 101. We're going back to the fundamentals and who better to talk to about that han Scott McMorrow of Samtec, I'm sure you know he's had over 30 years in the industry and in signal integrity, and his colleague, Matt Burns, who is also a high-speed application and marketing specialist. Together they're gonna talk and teach us about the current state of affairs with signal integrity, and then tease up the signal integrity 1 0 1 series that they'll be coming out with. And I think you're really gonna love it, and it's really gonna be, broken down into bite size pieces that I really think is gonna help you up your game.

Again, thanks for joining us. Now let's jump right into our conversation with Scott McMorrow and Matt Burns of Samtec. Hi Scott. Hi Matt. Thanks so much for joining us today. [00:01:00] We're glad to have you on The Ecosystem Podcast.

[00:01:03] Scott McMorrow: Hi, Judy. How are you?

[00:01:05] Judy Warner: Always good to see you both, and I always learn a lot from both of you, so it's pretty exciting for me to have you both, and I think our audience is gonna enjoy it.

For those three people who may not know you, Scott, why don't you start off by introducing yourself and your background, and then Matt will go to you.

[00:01:21] Scott McMorrow: All right. Thank you. My name is Scott McMorrow. I am a strategic technologist for Sam Tech. I've been in the signal integrity industry for oh thir, oh, 30 plus years now since the nineties.

There you go. Matt,

[00:01:37] Matt Burns: Judy, nice to be with you, Scott. Always a privilege to be with you as well, sir. I work in technical marketing here at Sam Tech. I originally was trained as an engineer, but I haven't been a real engineer for probably as long as Scott's been working professionally, maybe not quite that long.

Sorry, Scott. But I try to play an engineer. On podcasts like this, when we talk about technology and we're really all those bad jokes aside, we're really excited to be here [00:02:00] with Scott and you, Judy, to talk about some of the cool things that we're doing to help educate the market on challenges with signal integrity 1 0 1.

[00:02:08] Judy Warner: When I heard about the things you had on the horizon, I wanted to pull you guys in because I get calls weekly. We need a signal integrity engineer. It's always signal integrity right in the pull in which we all swim. Of course, it's always a topic. Scott, you and I did a podcast gosh, few years ago now.

And you were telling me about the amazing team Sam Tech has in-house. Can you, two things I wanna talk about. Why is signal integrity seem like we're talking about it more and more, and what led us to be. To this place where you guys are creating more content around the issue of signal integrity 1 0 1?

[00:02:53] Scott McMorrow: Sure. There's kind of three questions there. Yes. First signal integrity has come to the to the [00:03:00] forefront. For one simple reason, as we go faster, more things break. The more things break usually it has something to do. It often has something to do with signal integrity.

And so as a result, you you need signal integrity, engineering and signal integrity engineers to solve those sorts of deep problems with products. What I like to say is nobody, no company starts. Performing doing create, doing signal integrity, engineering, and developing a group of people to perform those analysis.

Until stuff breaks. As soon as the product isn't working and it becomes a signaling, and it is a signaling problem, then what happens is all stops are pulled and you bring in a team of professionals to do that, whether it be consultants, people from other companies your suppliers or your own in-house people.

It's that way. It happened at Intel. It's the way it happened [00:04:00] pretty much everywhere in the industry. And until it was a problem, it. Wasn't a problem and we didn't have signal integrity engineers. It

[00:04:08] Judy Warner: just seems, go ahead. Sorry. No, go ahead, please. It's, I think that answers my question. I feel like because the speeds are going up and Matt, just before Design Con, you were in talking about 2 24 at gigs.

It's no wonder. I think there's a lot of self breaking or trying to figure out how to make something go that isn't going now. So that sort of answers my question because now do you think, this is a, an aside question I didn't float by you ahead of time, but do you think we're doing a good job in the industry letting universities know that this demand is growing and that this might be a good discipline to pursue?

[00:04:47] Scott McMorrow: I think we're doing a better job. In the past there were very few universities that had any specialties in the area of signal integrity, engineering. But what has happened in the last, say 10 years [00:05:00] is that they have started, come universities are actually creating curriculums around around the subject.

And so at least up through the master's level, and there's some that. Offer PhD programs that incorporate signal integrity practices in them.

[00:05:17] Matt Burns: Yeah, and maybe I could just add a another angle there too, Judy, just to back up what Scott says. One of the things that Sam Tex's been really involved with is that a lot of undergraduate programs intellectual engineering have senior capstone design projects.

And some of those programs are starting to have a bent, towards signal integrity. Now it's not to the master's level and PhD level that most OEM companies need, but at least it's starting to introduce the the concepts beyond a basic electric magnetics class at the undergraduate level.

Sam Tech has been really focused on trying to participate in those programs. So we've been working with such universities as Penn State, har, Penn State University in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Which is obviously a big a big design center for the interconnect industry.

It's often called the connector capital of the world. We're working with [00:06:00] University of South Carolina in Columbia, South Carolina. We've worked with the university of Colorado and Boulder. On these capstone design projects. And it's really given Sam Tech and are. Our competitors, our frenemies, as well as the semiconductor companies, test and measurement companies the ability to really start to influence the next generation of engineers.

So that, like Scott said, when they come into the industry, there's at least a larger baseline for some of the basics of signal integrity. Yeah.

[00:06:27] Judy Warner: It just seems to me, at least from my seat in the house, that people, OEMs are always looking for more of that and more so in the last, say five years. Then I just seems to be getting more and more demand instead of less.

So it's really good to hear Sam Tech's doing that because I think that's where at least some of the solution will lie is Yeah. Connecting companies like Sam Tech to industries and letting them know what's happening in industry. So Matt, you had your. You're hands on. I [00:07:00] didn't know this earlier, but when Covid hit we all went home.

We all started doing what we've been doing for the last two and a half years, or almost three years I guess now. And Geek Speak was launched, which was an online digital education platform. And I remember just as an observer, Watching and consuming it just out of pure interest. And I'm like, what a great idea.

And it seems like it got stood up really fast. That's how I got to know Scott McMorrow. And then I reached out to you guys to teach the audience about, man, this is really good content. And of course, Scott, with all your signal integrity knowledge. Matt, you had your fingers on the pulse. What, how did it get started?

And then where are we today? And just give us the geek speak.

[00:07:50] Matt Burns: Spiel. Yeah I appreciate you trying to give me credit for the launch of the idea of Geek Speak, but honestly, that was Scott's idea and I saw, I wanna make sure he gets the credit he deserves. [00:08:00] But, we found ourselves to, it's probably the end of March, early of April of 20 when we're in the depths of the, or just I guess the ramping up of the Covid isolation.

And we're like, Yeah, so Scott's Hey, we've got this great opportunity. We've got this captive audience that needs to keep their technologies up. And, some of, we thought about trying to do something formal for like CEUs and things like that, but that just proved to be too much of a workload very quickly, Scott, Isman Gus, some of our other si technology leaders and some of our up and coming si engineers as well. We really were able to launch geeks speak, and the reception was more than we could have anticipated. I, because we had so much content, we started with a, we were doing a biweekly cadence for several months, and then we and.

Out, out of the gate, 75, a hundred, 150. Some of the geek speaks. I think we had north of 200 engineers speaking. We got quick momentum word on the street, got out and we started attracting this consistent following. Now obviously, we couldn't keep up the cadence of[00:09:00] twice a month.

So we moved back to monthly and ever since, probably I think 22, early 22, last year and a half or so, we've been doing a monthly cadence. And it's been working out really well. And, Scott's mentioned this in some of his podcasts and in some of his writings in the past, Sam Tech continues to make investments in expanding RSI capabilities to the, I think the latest, correct me if I'm wrong, Scott, I think we have over 80 SI specialists in some form.

It's. Yeah, it's

[00:09:25] Scott McMorrow: somewhere north of 80.

[00:09:27] Matt Burns: Yeah, somewhere north of 80 internal to the company. So not only do we need to keep them sharp in helping to develop their skillsets with experts like Scott and this Vaughn and Gus and Rich Mullets but that's all Geek Speak, has also given them an opportunity to get better at presenting the technology, feel more comfortable with the technology and taking answers in a much more open-ended real-time environment.

What's been really cool about it too is that. Because we've been doing it for the better part of, delivering these Geek Speak webinar series for the better part of three years. We've really diversified into a number of [00:10:00] topics, so it started out as a SI 1 0 1 educational tool, but we've been able to do deep dives on, the nuances of Twin X cabling and how that affects.

Excuse me, system design, but also SI performance. We have a, one of our specialists here at santec, Steve cruk, he does a lot of work within the PCI sig community around developing next generation of P express technology. And he's done two or three webinars on some of the nuances of working with that, implementing that at PCI four, PCI five, PCI six.

We've done some things around rf Isman is known for his work on Power, integrity. So he's been able to give a number of presentations on that. So the nice thing is that, Great success, great following great consistency over the last three plus years. And what we're finding out now is that we're in the, the second quarter of 23 is that there's almost a refocusing on SI 1 0 1.

We've got all this master's level, maybe PhD level information that's available on geek speak, but it's you know what, let's revisit some of these topics that we may have skipped over. To [00:11:00] help general problems and this goes back to, I think what you and I talked about on our last podcast, Judy, is that data centers bleeding edge, two 20, one 12 for design, and now 2 24 coming over the next couple years, right?

But when you look at other industries, 28 gigabit is bleeding edge. 50, yeah. 15 mainstream gig may be bleeding edge. Yeah. So whether that's industrial or embedded or medical or automotive or whatever. So the same, I kind, this is maybe just my P brain thinking, but I tend to think of data center being bleeding edge, and then I'm.

The, the embedded, which is a very loose term, you loosely defined term, the embedded ecosystem may be being a generation or two behind. In terms of implementing those speeds. But that doesn't mean that it that, implementing all those si characteristics, making sure the signal is clean is easy.

So we've found, the I'm getting a little long-winded as usual here, so I'll try to wrap up. No, it's the question stuff, but it. What we've seen is, okay, we used to have data center SI engineers or semiconductor SI engineers or test measurement SI engineers. [00:12:00] But now we're starting to see the SI engineers from medical or embedded or industrial or whatever because okay, they don't need to implement PCI six or PCI seven, but someone needs to implement PCI three or PCI four.

So we're. We're definitely expanding our focus and trying to support the needs that the industry has. Across the application space.

[00:12:22] Judy Warner: It will always reminds me of. Of John Wooden, the famous basketball coach, and it was all about the fundamentals. He started teaching these seven foot giants right out of the bat, how to put their socks on and tie their shoes.

What I hear you saying is you're going back to those fundamentals, right? Because there's way more probably of those folks. It's really easy to get focused on the ultra high speed stuff because that's the front end, but it, that makes a lot of sense to me. Scott, over these last two or three years, and so sorry for trying to give Matt credit for your work.

I know you're doing all the hard work. It's

[00:12:58] Scott McMorrow: it's okay. [00:13:00]

[00:13:01] Judy Warner: Is so geek speak. You're now going into your third year. You're pivoting a little bit, but what has been again and true. I'm just a fan. I really found it. I liked it and I wanted to talk about it and share it with engineering professionals that I know because I thought it was so good.

And what has been the feedback over these three years? And then in regards to fundamentals, what would you like to see covered?

[00:13:31] Scott McMorrow: The feedback has been, 99% positive. Any negative feedback is, oh we slightly disagree with you on this, or we would like a little bit more information on that.

But in general, it's been there's been a number of people that have come back and. Said, this is some of the best training they've ever had in anywhere in the industry. And we and that was our purpose was to [00:14:00] create training for everybody. Because none of this is easy.

Everybody needs to be brought up on different techniques. Even during the middle of a geek speak presentation by my colleagues, I learned things and that causes me to think about other things that are interesting. And I'll go back and say, back in the kind of the dawn of the microcomputer era, In the late nineties I, Intel was having some problems with some market penetration on motherboards with chip sets.

And so what they decided and that what they found was that part of the problem was, The designers didn't know how to design this stuff in. They didn't understand some of the signal integrity principles and electrical principles that were involved, and they were much simpler back then. We're talking 90 megahertz processors at the time. But that's when they started creating the Intel yellow cov cover design kits. The [00:15:00] secret and top secret design kits that everybody around the world gets. And what they did. Was to create a design kit that gave you the design, essentially. And that's a good strategy.

As long as you don't want, as your STA strategy assumes that you're always going to be able to give them the design. Sam Tech oh, going on 20 years ago, we came up with the concept of Final Inch. The idea was to. Give people the final inch design for a connector. We said the connector does not end at the connector, it includes the print circuit board.

What it's mounted on is all part of the connector system. So let's give that to them. What we said with what I said with geek speak was let's teach them how to do this. Let's give them all the first principles. Let's show them what can be done. And let's try to [00:16:00] make the world of engineers, better engineers, better signal integrity engineers.

And as a side effect they might want to use our parts. That would be a really nice thing. But we think that if we can float the entire industry up in capability we're all going to win. And that was our that was our philosophy. For this next next realm of of geek speak, we're gonna do two things when we're gonna continue presenting advanced information, but we're now also going to present SI 1 0 1 kind of information.

In a more advanced way we're gonna talk about what are the principles involved? How do we apply them, and why are they important to you? Because the realization is just beca just because you came out of college with a degree and you might have taken one or two classes in SI engineering you don't know everything.

You can't possibly, it's, I've been in the [00:17:00] industry for over 40 years. And I don't know everything we all learned from each other, and that's the whole philosophy. Let's do some simpler things, but let's keep them at a a high level so that in many cases we learned these things in college especially the newer people, but we didn't learn them at the level that we need as a practicing engineer.

We learned about transmission lines when we didn't know what a tr when we didn't even know how to apply a transmission line. We still suffer from the fundamental error of thinking of things like circuits. So everything that we, the idea of return current. Makes no sense. When you, when you learned, when you created the first circuit you, you created in electrical engineering, it was a battery right?

And a switch, and maybe a capacitor. That's [00:18:00] not a very interesting system, and we're taught that the current flows in a loop. What we're not taught at that time is that the current. The electromagnetic field actually travels as a wave. And the current is actually a result of the electromagnetic field.

And that's a little bit harder to grasp. So we want to, we want people to grasp the next level fundamentals because they're very powerful in application and further electrical engineering.

[00:18:31] Judy Warner: I love that you're giving people the knowledge and the principles because you're right. Theory and taking a couple classes and doing a simple capstone is not gonna prepare you for the real world, and I.

So I really appreciate that Sam Tech's investing in this way. W Scott, Matt, both of you. What does Sam Tech do with 80 SI engineers? What is their scope of work in addition to, cause I [00:19:00] know there's a lot of people presenting and geek speak. But what do they do on the day-to-day when they're not teaching other engineers?

Like, why is Sam Tech investing in this way?

[00:19:11] Scott McMorrow: Oh so we mostly just watch cat videos.

[00:19:14] Matt Burns: That's what you do up in Maine, Scott, right? That's what all the road folks do, right? That's

[00:19:17] Scott McMorrow: those are we in Maine? We watch Maine Coon Cat videos. Videos? No. So if we think about what, so you have to start with what Sam Tech makes. We have in the area of what we would call high performance products.

We have board to board connectors. We have dozens of families of different board to board connectors. We have RF connectors we have RF cables, we have flyover interconnect with chin, with twin X. We have power connectors and just, I and I'm sure I've missed one there. But essentially if you just take each one of those, we [00:20:00] need a minimum or two or three or three or four qualified engineers just to get these products out.

To help the mechanical designers design them. And to document them and provide the original collateral and documentation for customers. Then alongside, we said, okay, we we have a frontline support department which is called FAST now, which I have no idea what that acronym means, but if.

But it's it, but it's fast. But and that goes along with the SAM Tech sudden service. So we are a marketing service oriented com company. And so we have a group of SI engineers that are simply de dedicated to. Frontline customer support. Okay. And it's everything.

I don't understand why my connector doesn't mount on my board correctly. I don't know how to interpret this drawing [00:21:00] to how do I design 112 gigabit per second link with this connector? And I'm going to tie you up. And make you jump through a bunch of hoops in order to get it done.

So there, just in that group, we have probably five, and I don't, these aren't, these are just off the top of my head, about five engineers that directly interface with the customers. Then alongside of that, we have our our system engineering group that Gus. Londo run is part of, and they actually work together, so we've divided it up into essentially the simple stuff.

And the hard stuff. So we have basically frontline takes care of everything and when it gets too hard, it goes over to our team that's able to do anything up to, 224 gigabits per second and can provide custom consulting. For customers. So that's, that creates a lot of people. Then we have a team of layout professionals [00:22:00] that are signal integrity oriented, layout people, which we have trained in our own practices and principles.

We have we have a group that does software. To write code for our internal analysis tools and for our demonstrators, and we decided that we would make our entire demonstration the, all of our demonstrations that we give at DesignCon in other places and our customer evaluation boards, those are all done by our active system group.

Which basically designs complete boards and systems. So very quickly we've spun up these huge numbers of of groups and people. We have a few people involved in coax and twin X development. And I've probably forgotten about a dozen other people. And now we've brought in, we also have optical people that are part of the group now, and optic electro optical engineers.

We, we've got several optical groups in Sam Tech, [00:23:00] and we have a silicon design group now for designing basically on device optical components essentially. So amazing. There's a huge. We span the system to the connector signal integrity I see in our department. So that's why we have so many, and this geek Speak training is good for them too because as when new people come in, we can say, okay, go start looking at Geek Speaks and learn everything that you can.

And been so many times when somebody would have a question and I would just say, Hey, we have a geek speak on this, why don't you go review that? And then if you have questions, come back.

[00:23:40] Judy Warner: I see. So you're using it bidirectionally both as a support tool because of the. The width of your product line, but you're also using it proactively, to train up and give back.

I love that you, your team, Scott, [00:24:00] you know of once you speak, you guys are deep in the weeds, which I think uniquely qualifies you to really put out world class education. So Matt, you are. Closely involved in all the educational stuff at Sam Tech. So you have the and for our audience, I'm gonna share the links to Geek Speak and everything we're talking about in the show notes.

So don't worry about writing anything down. Don't crash your car. Don't stop on the treadmill because we'll have all that for you to check below. But Matt, what else do you have coming? In regards to geek speak and tell our audience where else they can tap into resources that you have your hand on the pulse

[00:24:41] Matt Burns: of.

No, that, that's a great question, Judy. And I guess I would answer that by just for 30 seconds or so, just talking about my journey. When I came to Sam, when I came to Sam Tech eight, seven and a half, eight years ago, whatever it's been I knew the basics of interconnect, but I didn't know anything about high speed.

And, I joked I [00:25:00] really haven't been a practicing engineer for a good 18 to 20 years. I've been planning on the other side of the, the b the other side of the fence in sales and marketing for a number of reasons. But the reason I bring that up is that, while listening to and working with Scott and Ison and Guss and Rich Mullets and Steve Cruz Wick and all these, various experienced professionals, I've learned to at least be.

Somewhat conversant, semi conversent, whatever you wanna call it. Just by osmosis. And for me, getting a chance to co-host geek Speak and some of the other things that we work on with Scott and then, and the other leaders we talked about, I feel like I got a front row seat to this world class education.

That. We've put out that we continue to produce and cont and continue to put out not only internally for our use, but also for our customers. Now it's hard for me to implement it because I don't work on, these challenges, on a day-to-day basis. I'm I just tend to talk about it a lot which is fine by me cuz I don't face any of these tough questions.

I say, Hey Scott customer X, y, Z needs help. Can you? That's literally, that's what I do. So Scott always helps and I talk about it and point people in the right direction to [00:26:00] the really smart people. Which makes my job easier, by the way. But anyway to continue upon that we've really seen, even though Geek Speak has grown by itself one of the things that we face and Scott even mentioned this, some of the questions that we get through our si fast team or frontline support team a lot of these questions are very, entry level SI 1 0 1 stuff.

I see. Yeah, and it's not that we don't want to educate the industry. And it's not that we don't wanna educate our customers because we feel that's part of our mission, but at the same time, we don't have infinite resources. So we'll be thinking, how can we. Efficient, more efficiently, answer those questions on a larger scale.

So there's a couple things that we've been working on in addition to geek speak to k to work towards that goal. Okay. One of them we talked about earlier this year we Sam Tech originally had come out with its s i n. SI 1 0 1 handbook, probably in 2007, 2008 timeframe. And we realized it was an underutilized resource, but at the same time, it needed refreshed because obviously we've had a tremendous [00:27:00] amount of innovation, not only for the interconnect industry, but just in high speed design.

15 years ago we were looking at 10 gigabit. Now we're talking about 2 24, right? So there's just a bunch of nuance that you have to worry about. And Scott's mentioned some of that today and how you optimize the channel. So we work with our, with a number of SI leaders to update, refresh, enhance the SI handbook.

And we released it at DesignCon 23 earlier this year. Unofficially. It's on the website. You can download it for free. It's not gated in, in, in any function and. And the feedback that we've gotten on that, directly and anecdotally has been nothing short of positive.

We were at at another trade show. I think it was O ffc, and there was a SI specialist from one of our competitors. I won't mention which one. And he's a very esteemed Si engineer in his own right in the industry, akin to Scott and some of our specialists. And he came up to me, he's man, this is one of the best si pieces I've ever seen you guys make.

My son's a is a double E major and I forget what school, university of Illinois, I think, or something like that. Another big [00:28:00] 10 school. And he's I'm giving this to him because he needs it for his classes. Thanks. Thanks. And I thought, you know what? This is someone that knows this stuff.

Really well. And so to me I thought that was I'd love to name the engineer, but I don't wanna, I don't want to put him out here without asking for his permission. Cuz everybody knows him, but I, to me, I thought that was the greatest compliment for the things that we continue to work on.

So our SI handbook is, has been really popular. It's free for download and, we'll, as you mentioned in the show notes, you can. See where to do that on our website. We're really using that s that SI handbook as a call to action for some of these. So one si, 1 0 1 Geek Speaks. So some of the Geek Speaks that we've already presented this year.

Some of the Geek speaks that we're going to be presenting the summer. Second half of 23 are literally going to answer questions from the SI handbook, but do a deeper dive than the one or two pages that are in there. And Scott's con alluded that alluded to that a little bit. Not only is it the topic, but what do we do with this from an application standpoint.

Yeah. So that's coming. Something else that we're working on and we're hoping to launch by the end of Q2 is, we've got geek [00:29:00] speak webinars that are hour long, plus or minus that answer a topic really well. But what happens if someone only has this much time to learn about a certain topic?

So we're getting ready to launch what we're calling our Geek Speak video series, and it's really designed to be a, one to two minute video that we're gonna post on our YouTube channel. We're gonna build up an encyclopedia of the, of these videos and it's gonna, it's gonna answer one question.

Yeah. Some it may be as basic as what is insertion loss or something that's way more complex as what is calm. And, we want to use the, our experience experts like Scott and Rich and the other folks we've already mentioned to some of our other engineers that are up and coming that have a concept.

We're really gonna span the breadth of our knowledge base here at Sam Tech. So we're really looking forward to that. And we really think that's gonna, that's gonna resonate with a lot of our audience. When you look at these three main areas we're reaching out with, Geek Speak obviously is the flagship.

Our SI handbook compliments that, and it's an on-demand resource that anyone can use. And then finally we're bringing up our [00:30:00] si, excuse me, our Geek Speak video series which again, is really gonna be focused on, Short, one minute, two minute bits on how to answer a technical question.

And then obviously, we're gonna make this all available to the industry through our email cam, our email, and our social media and things like that. So we're really excited about it. Judy this is the Geek Speak video series is something that we've been talking about for a long time, and we finally feel like the time is right to, to launch these efforts.

And we're really excited to see, hope we're confident. Hopeful is probably a better word that the reception for the video series will be just as strong as the Geek Speak webinar series and our SR and our SI handbook

[00:30:38] Judy Warner: well. I really appreciate you guys and Sam Tech. The depth of your bench, but that the way that you teach and train, do you want people to buy your products?

Yes, as often and as much as possible, but you really do this in a way that feels empowering to engineers and it couldn't come at a better time because there's just [00:31:00] not a enough good si. Content out there so that you guys have stood up and invested in it. I really appreciate from an altruistic way, you also may be saving yourself from some tech support calls you don't wanna do, but Yes.

And so Scott can watch more CAT videos, but Yeah. You know That's right.

[00:31:18] Matt Burns: Hey Judy, on a side note, if anyone wants Scott's cell phone number just contact me via LinkedIn and you can contact him 24 7. I'm kidding, Scott, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just something. Yeah,

[00:31:29] Judy Warner: we know where you live.

Scott McMorrow. So well, gentlemen, really all seriousness, thank you so much. I really do. Always have appreciated the things that Sam Tech does to help engineers, which is why I wanted to have you on and talk about what you've got coming and to learn more about what's on the horizon.

Again, for our listeners, I'm gonna load up the show notes with those three resources and make sure you come over and subscribe. To the ecosystem as well, because I'm gonna have some downloads for you there. So we [00:32:00] wanna keep equipping you to do your very best work, gentlemen. Thank you. Any last thoughts before I let you go?

I know you're busy.

[00:32:07] Scott McMorrow: No, but thank you, Judy. I appreciate the time and appreciate being able to talk to engineers like this and in a much simpler

[00:32:14] Matt Burns: way than normal. Yeah, Judy, it's always a privilege to be here. Thank you for the time, Scott. It's always fun being with you. Appreciate it as well.

[00:32:22] Judy Warner: To our listeners, thanks so much for joining us today and learning, taking a page from the Playbook of Scott McMorrow and Matt Burns.

We'll see you next time. Make sure you go get the show notes. We'll see you next time. Until then, remember to always stay connected to the ecosystem.